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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:44 pm

Today I rode Prison Camp, and the trail has been completely neutered. Every last rock has been scraped off.... I met a couple guys doing trail maintenance, and they said that Southern Arizona Hiking Club has been working on that section of the AZ trail.

I thanked them for helping out because some parts of that trail were eroded and needed help, but I also told them they went too far, and have completely demolished the challenging sections of the trail.

It is now essentially a beginner trail. It is now trivially easy in both directions, and they've even pulled out many large embedded rocks. Not only have they made Prison Camp less fun, but they've opened the trail up to novice riders, and there are no longer any obstacles to slow riders down. With more riders, more speed, and less skill the trail may be significantly less safe and the chances for hiker-biker conflict might go up.

They said that many people take their kids hiking there and they are worried about people getting hurt. I responded by saying that I have been riding the trail for the last 9 years, and it's always been rocky. Besides, Bug Springs is right next door for people who want a trail without rocks.

They responded back that if I want a challenge I should ride the trail East side of the road because 'they haven't figured out how to get the rocks out yet'. Yes, their plan is to sanitize the East side of Molino basin, the coolest section of trail in Tucson, but they haven't gotten around to it yet! What the hell. This isn't freaking Iowa, there are SUPPOSED TO BE ROCKS ON TRAILS IN AZ! For your ride this Sunday, go out on the 'New Prison Camp', and while you're riding think about the fact that they want to make the trail on the East of the road just like it.

Anyway, maybe we need to write and/or talk to the Southern Arizona Hiking Club to make sure the crown jewel of Tucson riding remains intact.

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:34 pm

Geez finally a trail I can ride. Maybe they can do Millie to because I am scared on rocks. Joking aside this really really sucks. That was my personal fav on the mountain and I noticed and mentioned to Evan a few of the fun little tricky spots had be "fixed" when we did the 8 days of xmas ride. Why can't they spend their time building new trail instead of ruining the trails that are already in place. Ah I am so pissed off Evil or Very Mad

Centurian Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 1824

On whose authority are they doing this? That's definitely bullshit.

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:27 pm

I say we go put the rocks back

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:56 pm

I rode that trail today also, fallowing bug springs. I agree it sucks. It wasn't as tech, but with it being a little wider and smoother, it's extremely fast. I guess I'm on both sides of the road on this one.

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:23 am

We can't let them do that to Molino Basin, that's a sweet trail. This bullshit, we gotta stop it.

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:24 am

You guys do realize that these are the same people who built large portions of the new Bugs Springs Trail. This group is out there doing trail work on a regular basis a lot of them also come out for all of new AZT construction work. We as mountain bikers have them to thank for a lot of good riding, Iâ€™ll have to get up there and see it for myself before I pass judgment on the work that was done.

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:44 am

EDIT:
Let us know what you find out AZT. I saw the first round the last time I rode the trail and did not like the changes personally, but cannot judge from the latest 'maintenance' as I have not been there. Nor am I an expert in what defines sustainability.

Fat-Rider is also going to check with them. Hopefully you and FR can 1) educate them on sustainability and multi-use needs, and more importantly 2) keep them from going across the street to the East Molino Basin. I hope they can be satisfied with having their kid friendly Prison Camp and leave the other side alone.

Please keep us informed and let us know what we can do to help.
thanx,
bv

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:50 am

Bug Springs is entirely rideable going UP the mountain. But it would take one
hell of a rider to ride the whole thing coming down the mountain. I took a
good college try at riding up those RR Tie steps. I blew up after each group
of about 10 or so. Had to just pause for a while and catch my breath before
attacking the next set of 10 or so...only to blow up again. I gotta say, this
flatlander is still getting used to the thinner air -- even up at only 5K feet.
But even if I wasn't wheezing, those two climbs that are modified with the
RR Tie steps are not very bike-friendly.

Are these "same people who built large portions" of the local trails even
thinking about what the MTB'ers want?

I think not.

If they thought about it for even a minute, they'd build climbable switch-
backs with the proper grade and drain characteristics. IMBA-style. So,
although I'm certainly grateful that there are new trails to ride, even their
dumb-down trail work is, well, ignorant.

And remember this wise, old fact. No matter how wrong a person is about
something, they NEVER like to be told they're wrong. That means that
educating them about the _right_ way to build trails will be a challenge.

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:02 am

E_P,
To your point we need to reach out to them, Pima Trails Association, and any other user group. Again, I have not seen the latest trail-work so I do not know if this is good or bad change to the trail. But at a mininum I would hope that we can have them, with PTA, start talking to all the user groups before deciding what level of maintenance and trail sanitizing should be done.

And I am curious if this was work determined by this one group, or sanctioned by the county/PTA/etc. AZTripper and Fat_Rider hopefully will find out so we can decide what path we have to communicate our thoughts.

Jr. Writer Joined: Nov 27, 2007 Posts: 154

I know for a fact that the SAHC club had little to do with the asinine layout of certain portions of Bug Springs. The guilty party is a forest service employee who thankfully is retired now. He gave me several reasons that the "scar" portion (initial climb out of Bear Canyon) goes the way it does. None of those reasons were justifiable, IMO.

Jr. Writer Joined: Nov 27, 2007 Posts: 154

Agreed here, Tim. Those guys have contributed quite a bit to local trails. I rode a tiny bit of Prison Camp yesterday (on my way up the mountain), but the modifications I saw a ~month ago were noticeable but not particularly alarming to me.

I will try to get out there this week and see if that's changed.

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:02 am

I'm glad they're doing trail maintenance, and Prison Camp definitely needed some, we just need to talk to them so that they understand certain rocky sections are a challenge, and that we like it that way. It seriously looks like some one came out and buffed it clean. It now is less rocky than FI, or 24 hr. All those tough wash/dip entries and exits are now a easy as cherry pie in either direction, your grandmother could ride them.

They went in there and spent lots of time digging out large embedded rocks, even in areas that didn't have any erosion problems. Is there any justifiable trail building principle for doing that? I don't even understand why hikers would want those rocks gone, don't they make the trail a more interesting hike? Also, the uphill section past the trail marker about 2/3 of the way down as you're heading East has been completely cleaned of rocks. It used to have a tricky move in the middle, right where you were out-of-breath. That section was in fine shape, and wasn't eroded at all. There was absolutely no point to pulling the rocks there out. It's almost as if they had too many volunteers, so the person in charge said, 'hey why don't you pull out some rocks'.

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:32 pm

I'm still in the middle on this one. But it's like politics. The people in charge or who have authority to do something, do what best suites thier needs and wants. Even though it will effect the majority that makes use of it, there are more people who like the idea of change of ideal usability over actual usability. The people who don't understand and don't use it, see good in it; while the people who do understand and do use it get doggy raped by bubba. We all need change right? Damn... this sounds really familiar for some reason....

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:52 pm

Nothing is that simple first as Scott said the poor alignment job was entirely on the FS and one old school manager in particular.

I don't think he took your ability to ride up it into consideration he has his way of building trail and there was no changing his mind, fortunately he is gone now.

I think that FS crews did the big water bar work and that the hiking club along with some help from SDMB did a lot on the lower more ride able part.

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